TESTIMONY OF NANCY PERRIN RICH
The testimony of Nancy Perrin Rich was taken at 11 a.m., on June 2, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr.Hubert. This is the deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich.
Mrs. Rich, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Under the provisions of the President’s Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mrs. Rich, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, any participation in that death, or the death of President Kennedy by Jack Ruby, certain particular activities of Jack Ruby which you have heretofore told the FBI, and other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now, Mrs. Rich, I think you appear today here by virtue of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, is that right?
Mrs.Rich. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And that—when did you receive that letter?
Mrs.Rich. I actually received in my hands the letter yesterday, Monday, the 1st. I received notification of it via a telephone call from Mr. Fahety of the FBI Bureau, Boston, notifying me of it.
It was sent—and at this time I would like to state—and opened by Mr. Rod Kennett, of Executive Limited, 100 Boylston Street, Boston, and there was no possible way that letter could have been opened erroneously. It could not have even by any stretch of the imagination been misconstrued as being office literature. It was personally addressed to me, with the President’s Commission on it.
I want that in the record.
Mr.Hubert. It is.
Mrs.Rich. I also want it in the record I came here of my own free will.
Also that I don’t want it known and that I would like Kennett cautioned to be quiet about this. I want someone to caution the Kennetts to keep quiet about this. Rod opened the letter, and he has been telling everybody in Boston about it. I don’t particularly want it known.
Mr.Hubert. Well, I am not in a position to pass upon your request. But I am quite certain that the Commission will take it into account.
Mrs.Rich. I would appreciate it, because of some extracurricular work that I do—it is not feasible for anyone to know that I go before any kind of commission, for anything.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, let me get back to this. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3 day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. But the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day written notice if he so desires. And I ask you now if you wish to waive the 3-day notice.
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I will waive it.
Mr.Hubert. Now, will you stand, please, so I may administer the oath? Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mrs.Rich. I do.
Mr.Hubert. Will you please state your full name?
Mrs.Rich. Nancy Elaine Perrin Rich.
Mr.Hubert. I understand that you recently married.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. What is your husband’s name?
Mrs.Rich. Francis L. Rich.
Mr.Hubert. Where do you reside?
Mrs.Rich. No. 16 River Road, Hanover, Mass.
Mr.Hubert. When were you married?
Mrs.Rich. April 11, 1964.
Mr.Hubert. Prior to that time, I think you had been married to a man by the name of Perrin.
Mrs.Rich. Robert L. Perrin.
Mr.Hubert. And he died?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. When?
Mrs.Rich. August 29, 1962.
Mr.Hubert. Where?
Mrs.Rich. New Orleans.
Mr.Hubert. And you had been married prior to that time?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I had.
Mr.Hubert. What was the name of the husband you were married to prior to the time you married Mr. Perrin?
Mrs.Rich. Husbands, in plural.Louis——
Mr.Hubert. You mean there are more than one?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Give us the names.
Mrs.Rich. Louis Edward Musachio.
Mr.Hubert. Before you pass away from him to the other husband, would you tell us how your marriage was dissolved?
Mrs.Rich. By divorce.
Mr.Hubert. Was he your first husband?
Mrs.Rich. He was my second.
Mr.Hubert. Your second husband. And is he still alive?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I gather.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know where he lives?
Mrs.Rich. No; I don’t. The last known address was Lackland Air Force Base. I believe he is retired out of the service since then.
Mr.Hubert. What business was he in?
Mrs.Rich. Air Force, a sergeant.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you married to him?
Mrs.Rich. Married, I couldn’t exactly say. I guess a year. I actually lived with him about 9 months. Eight of those were spent on various—he spent in various hospitals, including Walter Reed here, for operations, and in the psychiatric locked ward.
Mr.Hubert. When were you divorced from him?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, dear. 1961, I believe.
Mr.Hubert. Where?
Mrs.Rich. In the county of Adams, city of Brighton, Colo.
Mr.Hubert. Where were you married to him?
Mrs.Rich. I was married at L. G. Hanscomb Air Force Base, Bedford, Mass.
Mr.Hubert. What about your first husband?
Mrs.Rich. My first husband was Charles G. Wilson. Hewas——
Mr.Hubert. When did you marry him, and where?
Mrs.Rich. Well, I married him in Berwick, Maine, in 1953.
Mr.Hubert. And how was that marriage dissolved?
Mrs.Rich. In divorce.
Mr.Hubert. When and where?
Mrs.Rich. 1955, in Biddeford, Maine.
Mr.Hubert. And how old are you, Ma’am?
Mrs.Rich. I am 27.
Mr.Hubert. And what is your present occupation?
Mrs.Rich. Housewife.
Mr.Hubert. You do not work for Executives Unlimited?
Mrs.Rich. Not any more.
Mr.Hubert. You did work for them?
Mrs.Rich. I did.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you work for them?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, about 3 months.
Mr.Hubert. When did you cease working for them?
Mrs.Rich. Upon my marriage.
Mr.Hubert. Which is April 11?
Mrs.Rich. April 11.
Mr.Hubert. What sort of business was that?
Mrs.Rich. An employment agency.
Mr.Hubert. Where is it located?
Mrs.Rich. 100 Boylston Street, Boston, Mass., Suite 309.
Mr.Hubert. Have you any children?
Mrs.Rich. I have four.
Mr.Hubert. Would you state their ages and tell us by which husband they were born?
Mrs.Rich. I will start with my youngest. Diedre Pilar Perrin, age 4.
Mr.Hubert. And she is the daughterof——
Mrs.Rich. Robert L. Perrin.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mrs.Rich. Felicia Helen Musachio, whereabouts unknown, by Louis Edward Musachio.
Mr.Hubert. How old is she?
Mrs.Rich. She would be 5.
Mr.Hubert. Now, when you say whereabouts unknown, you mean you do not know the whereabouts of the child or of her father?
Mrs.Rich. Both. She was, to quote the FBI, not kidnapped, childnapped. Although I hold legal custody of her, I cannot find her.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Will you go on to the others?
Mrs.Rich. Brian Russell Wilson, age 7, and Valerie Dawn Wilson, age 10, both by Charles G. Wilson.
Mr.Hubert. Where do these children live?
Mrs.Rich. The two Wilsons reside in Biddeford, Maine, with my parents.
Mr.Hubert. Your father and mother?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct. The whereabouts of Felicia is unknown. And Deidre Perrin resides with me.
Mr.Hubert. What is your present husband’s occupation?
Mrs.Rich. He is the owner of North Quincy Taxi Co.
Mr.Hubert. That islocated——
Mrs.Rich. In Quincy, Mass.
Mr.Hubert. How long has he been so occupied?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, 20 years.
Mr.Hubert. What was the occupation of Robert Perrin?
Mrs.Rich. Many things, from a master mechanic, on heavy equipment, cats, et cetera, to a master foundry worker, patternmaker, moulder, to running a foundry.
Mr.Hubert. And other things?
Mrs.Rich. A writer, contracted by the old Street and Smith Co.
Mr.Hubert. A writer?
Mrs.Rich. He is an author, short stories. Anything beyond that, I couldn’t tell you, because I don’t know how much is true of what he told me of his past.
Mr.Hubert. What did he tell you of his past?
Mrs.Rich. May I ask a question?
Mr.Hubert. Yes; if you wish.
Mrs.Rich. All of this is confidential?
Mr.Hubert. I cannot give you the assurance that it is.
Mrs.Rich. Meaning this would not be publicized for the entire world, so to speak. The average person outside of who it directly would be reported to.
Mr.Hubert. I cannot give you the assurance that you ask for on that point. If you would prefer not to answer the question, in the light of your feelings about it, and the statement I have just made to you, then we can pass on to another point.
Mrs.Rich. Let me ask you this. Is it pertinent and important that you know?
Mrs.Hubert. Well, yes.
Mrs.Rich. Very well. Well, he claimedto——
Mr.Hubert. Now, you understand, I am not giving you any assurance that there will not be available to the public a transcript of this testimony.
Mrs.Rich. I understand this. I thoroughly understand this.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mrs.Rich. Well, he claimed to have worked for Jack Dragna, presently residing at San Quentin.
Mr.Hubert. That is to say he is in the penitentiary?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know for what offense?
Mrs.Rich. Income tax evasion. I suppose. I don’t know for sure.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mrs.Rich. Let me state at this time that half of what I am about to say—I am sorry—all of what I am about to say is hearsay. Half, I believe.
Mr.Hubert. We understand that. You are telling us what he told you he had done in the past, but that you don’t know for sure whether it is true.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct. But I want that in the record. That he did everything from handle Dragna’s call girls to be a heavy, so to speak.
Mr.Hubert. What do you mean by a heavy?
Mrs.Rich. Well, bodyguard.
Mr.Hubert. Bodyguard for whom?
Mrs.Rich. Jack Dragna, and various subsequent members, shall we say, of the organization that used to come into California.
Mr.Hubert. What organization was that?
Mrs.Rich. Call it by what you will—syndicate, Mafia.
Mr.Hubert. Who were some of the people involved?
Mrs.Rich. I could not tell you. I do know that he mentioned that he personally knew Mickey Cohen and Virginia Hill.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t know any other names?
Mrs.Rich. Jimmy Gilreath.
Mr.Hubert. Would G-i-l-r-e-a-t-h be about right?
Mrs.Rich. I would assume so.
Mr.Hubert. So what you are telling us is that your former husband, now deceased, Robert Perrin, had told you that among other things he acted as bodyguard for certain members of a syndicate, as you call it, and you have named, I think, four people who belonged to the syndicate.
Mrs.Rich. Supposedly, yes.
Mr.Hubert. And what was the syndicate about, from what you learned from your husband?
Mrs.Rich. Well, everything from prostitution to illegal gambling to narcotics.
Mr.Hubert. Now, all of this you know by hearsay alone?
Mrs.Rich. By hearsay alone.
Mr.Hubert. I ask you that question because a moment ago you said that half of what you said was hearsay.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. And I assume that the other half was not.
Mrs.Rich. I do know this, that he claimed that he ran guns—this was years ago, when Franco was coming into power. I do know this to be a fact, because he spent time in jail there.
Mr.Hubert. Where did he spend time in jail?
Mrs.Rich. In Spain. I do know he fought for both sides, as a professional soldier.
Mr.Hubert. When you say you know that, I take it that you mean that he told you so.
Mrs.Rich. No; I do not mean that, sir. I mean I have seen written proof of this statement.
Mr.Hubert. Such as what?
Mrs.Rich. Such as a prison record. Now, let me qualify that. I have seen said statement on record, call it what you may. Now, how authentic it was, I cannot swear to it.
Mr.Hubert. You mean he showed you a prison record?
Mrs.Rich. I found it. From stuff in Spain—both Madrid, and a place called Consuela.
Mr.Hubert. What sort of a prison record was it?
Mrs.Rich. It wasn’t as you would think of a prison record. It was merely a piece of paper in Spanish with a list of articles on it that was on his personat the time he was arrested. Another one was of a release signed by a Teniente Enriquez, which would be a lieutenant here, at the Madrid Secreto Servicio.
Mr.Hubert. I think you better spell all that out, because you are using a foreign language, and I am not sure that the reporter can get it except by the sound.
Mrs.Rich. All right. To clarify this, it was written in Spanish. I will quote it in English. “An article list, signed by Lieutenant Enriquez.”
Mr.Hubert. That is his last name?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; a release signed by someone in the Secret Service, which is comparable to our detective system on a city police force.
Mr.Hubert. It was a lease of what?
Mrs.Rich. A release.
Mr.Hubert. Did you talk to him about these documents?
Mrs.Rich. He seemed quite proud of the fact.
Mr.Hubert. I gather from that that you did talk to him about it?
Mrs.Rich. I did. Quite frankly, I asked him what in the heck it was all about. At that time, he claimed, he said, “Well, you won’t believe me. I wasn’t making it up.” He claimed he ran guns and used to pilot a small boat.
Mr.Hubert. Ran guns where?
Mrs.Rich. Into Spain, for Franco.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the date of that document? Did it have any date on it?
Mrs.Rich. I would say it was in the late thirties, I wouldn’t be sure, late thirties or early forties. It was either just prior to him going into the United States Army or after he was released. Now, I cannot be sure on that.
Mr.Hubert. You think that it could not have been earlier than, say, 1935?
Mrs.Rich. No, it could not have.
Mr.Hubert. Why are you sure of that?
Mrs.Rich. For the simple reason he was born in 1920. It couldn’t have been much prior to 1935. It was either late thirties or early forties. Again, I would like to, for the record, state that my husband was a writer.
Mr.Hubert. You are talking about Perrin now?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. And had a vivid imagination, as most writers do. Whether or not these were authentic documents, I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Did he die a natural death?
Mrs.Rich. Suicide. The coroner’s report was arsenic. I also would like to state for the record at this time after my husband’s death the Veterans’ Administration Hospital, I believe it is the one in Denver, that finally came up with the report, came up with the report that my husband was discharged from the service for hysteria, and had a history of mental disturbance.
Mr.Hubert. Were you living with him at the time he died?
Mrs.Rich. I was.
Mr.Hubert. You state to us now that the coroner’s report in New Orleans, Isuppose——
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. Showed that his death was caused by arsenic voluntarily consumed, right?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. Now, you lived part of the time that you were married to Perrin in Dallas, did you not?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. Why I am hesitant—I would like to clarify that statement. I went to Dallas seeking Mr. Perrin. He had left me.
Mr.Hubert. Where were you living when he left you?
Mrs.Rich. We were living in Belmont, Mass.
Mr.Hubert. What address?
Mrs.Rich. No. 11 Holden Road.
Mr.Hubert. How long after he left you did you seek him out in Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. I was in New Hampshire with the state legislature at the time. I was doing public relations. And I had just obtained a job, a position for him, and I telephoned to Massachusetts to tell him to come on down, and there was no answer. And I had a feeling that something was wrong. So I hightailed it back to Massachusetts, and there was a note. And the note said that he was going toDallas. I called and he wasn’t there. I called halfway over the United States, thinking of places he told me he had been, and I couldn’t find him.
Mr.Hubert. What place did you call in Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. I called the police department and a foundry he had mentioned in a letter, and had read the name of a gentleman he had mentioned at this time whose name eludes me—Youngblood—I take it back.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember his first name?
Mrs.Rich. No; I don’t. But my husband claimed—and I couldn’t ask him, because if he was he couldn’t have told me—claimed he was some sort of a Government agent, which was in all probability true.
Mr.Hubert. Did you contact Mr. Youngblood?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; he hadn’t seen him. Then I proceeded to call Kansas City and various other points I thought he might be.
Mr.Hubert. Did you actually contact the Dallas Police Department?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I did.
Mr.Hubert. Did you get any report from them?
Mrs.Rich. Except that he wasn’t there. Or that they didn’t know he was there.
Mr.Hubert. They did report that fact to you?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How did they do so?
Mrs.Rich. By phone.
Mr.Hubert. Go ahead.
Mrs.Rich. I then informed him that I would be there, which I did. Subsequently, Mr. Perrin—and I will neverunderstand——
Mr.Hubert. How long after the events you have just told us about, to wit, your coming home and finding that he wasn’t there—how long after those events did you go to Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. Approximately 1 week.
Mr.Hubert. All right. When was that?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, gosh. That was in, I believe, May. I can’t give you the exact month. But I believe it was in May.
Mr.Hubert. Of what year?
Mrs.Rich. Of 1961. Or was it 1962? ’62. I am sorry—1962.
Mr.Hubert. And how long—did you find Mr. Perrin?
Mrs.Rich. Again in a way. He wasn’t in Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. Where was he?
Mrs.Rich. Well, afterwards, when he arrived in Dallas, I found out that he had been in South Bend, Ind., with my secretary.
Mr.Hubert. In any case, when did you meet him in Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. He wrote mother, found out where I was—and came to Dallas, I believe, it would be around July.
Mr.Hubert. Of 1962?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. So you had been there alone from May of 1962 until July of 1962?
Mrs.Rich. I am giving approximate dates, yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, when he did arrive, what happened?
Mrs.Rich. Just like nothing had happened. Everything was fine.
Mr.Hubert. You mean there was a reconciliation between you?
Mrs.Rich. I loved my husband very much.
Mr.Hubert. But, in any case, you proceeded to live together as husband and wife?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, yes.
Mr.Hubert. How much education have you had, Mrs. Rich?
Mrs.Rich. I have had 3 years of high school.
Mr.Hubert. What high school?
Mrs.Rich. Biddeford High, in Biddeford, Maine.
Mr.Hubert. When did you leave there?
Mrs.Rich. I left when I was 16. That would be in 1954—1953—I am sorry. And I got married, and I go back, and I drop out because I am going to have a child. Then after I have the child I go back, and I am doubling up on mycourses and could have graduated. But I was too smart, and knew everything.
Mr.Hubert. Have you had any other type of training?
Mrs.Rich. Depending on what you mean—formal education—meaning book learning?
Mr.Hubert. Well, yes.
Mrs.Rich. No.
Mr.Hubert. Or other types of training, such as stenography?
Mrs.Rich. IBM, and police investigation.
Mr.Hubert. What about the IBM aspect? Did you study that?
Mrs.Rich. I made a misquotation. It would be Remington Rand, actually.
Mr.Hubert. Did you study?
Mrs.Rich. Not with Remington Rand as a company. For Craftsman Life and Health Insurance Co. of Boston.
Mr.Hubert. You worked there?
Mrs.Rich. I did.
Mr.Hubert. And studied the operation of Remington Rand machines there?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us the name of some of the people you worked with there?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, you are going back too far, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Where was that place located?
Mrs.Rich. On Boylston Street.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the name of the manager?
Mrs.Rich. It may sound odd—whether this name has stuck in my mind or not—but it seems to me his name is Griffin, too. I may be wrong.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you there?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, probably 6 months.
Mr.Hubert. That was after you married?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, no. No—in fact, I was working there when I met Musachio. That was back in 1958.
Mr.Hubert. I see. You had divorced your first husband?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. I think you mentioned something else besides IBM.
Mrs.Rich. Police investigation.
Mr.Hubert. Now, where did you learn that?
Mrs.Rich. From various police organizations, district attorney’s offices.
Mr.Hubert. Would you name them, please?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; some with the Boston Police Department.
Mr.Hubert. Who did you work with?
Mrs.Rich. We called him Papa McGill. Sergeant McGill, and John Dinatele, I believe.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you work there?
Mrs.Rich. Well, I was a young kid, and didn’t have any brains. I blew a case, and that was it.
Mr.Hubert. Were you paid?
Mrs.Rich. At that time; no.
Mr.Hubert. Your answer suggests that at a later time you were paid.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. With the same department?
Mrs.Rich. No.
Mr.Hubert. Well, with what police department?
Mrs.Rich. With the district attorney’s office of Sacramento.
Mr.Hubert. California?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you work there?
Mrs.Rich. Well, this wasn’t a question of working. I worked as needed, or as a case came up. I worked for Mr. Oscar Kistle, Chief Deputy District Attorney, who as of this January is now a judge.
Mr.Hubert. Did you work with anybody else there?
Mrs.Rich. I worked with the Hayward Police Department, in California.
Mr.Hubert. Who did you work with there?
Mrs.Rich. Lieutenant—I can’t remember his name.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you work with that police department?
Mrs.Rich. Well, I left. That is why I discontinued my association with them. Again, as needed.
Mr.Hubert. Well, altogether, how long were you there?
Mrs.Rich. Altogether, if you want to put it running day by day, probably 3 weeks. If you want to say—actually I was associated with them probably 3 or 4 months.
Mr.Hubert. That is what I meant.
Mrs.Rich. But not worked steadily.
Mr.Hubert. I understand.
Mrs.Rich. And the Oakland Police Department.
Mr.Hubert. Oakland, Calif.?
Mrs.Rich. California.
Mr.Hubert. And who did you work with there?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, dear. I worked on grand theft. Lieutenant—I can’t remember—whoever the lieutenant is in charge of grand theft detail. Lt. Parker.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay in Oakland with that association?
Mrs.Rich. Again, about the same length of time as Hayward. I was working with both of them at the same time, and also Sacramento. In that type of work, you cannot get by in just one.
Mr.Hubert. I don’t think you mentioned Sacramento yet.
Mrs.Rich. The district attorney’s office, yes, I have. At this time, if necessary, I can introduce a letter into evidence verifying part of this testimony.
Mr.Hubert. Well, do you wish to do so?
Mrs.Rich. I believe I would.
Mr.Hubert. Well, do you have the letter?
Mrs.Rich. I do. Note for the record I hand a letter to Mr. Hubert, signed by Chief Deputy Kistle.
Mr.Hubert. You have handed me this document. Do you wish—I assume you wish to keep the original.
Mrs.Rich. That is the only one I have, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Would you mind if we had a copy made of it?
Mrs.Rich. I would not.
Mr.Hubert. And then we can hand you back the original.
Mrs.Rich. That will be fine.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, when did you first meet Jack Ruby?
Mrs.Rich. When I first reached Dallas, I, of course, went directly to the police station. Ironically enough, the first person I met was Mr. Tippit.
Mr.Hubert. What is his first name? Are you referring to the Tippit who was shot on November 22d?
Mrs.Rich. I would say so. I believe it is the only Tippit on the police force.
Mr.Hubert. All right. So you met Mr. Tippit. And what happened then?
Mrs.Rich. I walked in and plunked $4 on the desk and said, “Here I am.” Hesaid——
Mr.Hubert.Well——
Mrs.Rich. This was a joke. When I called him from Massachusetts, I told him when I hit there I would have 4 bucks in my pocket. It was rather a kind of a joke, actually. I said, “Here I am.”
He said, “Oh, no; I told you not to do it.”
I had talked to him previously on the phone. So that was all right. So he called in one of the patrolmen. And they get the Black Maria, go down to the bus depot and get my bags. And I had called Associated Press. I have many friends around the press world. Being in public relations, I would. And this Brice someone or other said, “You can go and stay with my wife for a couple of days until you get settled.”
Three o’clock in the morning we start punching doorbells, with the suitcases in a Black Maria, trying to find Ann, and I couldn’t remember the last name. So the next day they send up to pick me up and help me find a place and job.
Mr.Hubert. When you say “they”——
Mrs.Rich. Meaning the police department of Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. What particular individuals?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t recall exactly who sent them up. I cannot remember the guy’s name. Really. I don’t believe he is any longer with them, I understand.
Mr.Hubert. In any case, some person from the police department came to get you the next day?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. Subsequently, one Mr. Paul Rayburn, detective, juvenile, came to pick me up, along with his partner, Detective House. Well, we managed to find a place to live. And Paul suggested he had a friend. And did I know anything about bartending; well, I did.
Mr.Hubert. What place did he find you to live in? Do you remember the address?
Mrs.Rich. No; I don’t. It was a rooming house. Actually, it was a private home more or less cut into small apartments. I believe it was a three-room apartment.
Mr.Hubert. And how long did you live there?
Mrs.Rich. Here is where we are going to get into difficulty. I don’t remember. I cannot remember the length of time or addresses I lived at.
Mr.Hubert. Did you live at more than one place prior to the time Mr. Perrin joined you in July?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I did.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember any of the addresses of the places where you lived?
Mrs.Rich. Well, I remember I lived—when Mr. Perrin joined me I was living on Oak Street, I believe. Then we moved to another street, and I don’t remember where it was.
Mr.Hubert. How many places do you suppose you lived in prior to the time Mr. Perrin joined you?
Mrs.Rich. Two, I think.
Mr.Hubert. One was on Oak Street?
Mrs.Rich. That was the one—let’s put it this way. Two including the one I was living at when he joined me.
Mr.Hubert. And one was on Oak Street?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. That was the big apartment building.
Mr.Hubert. And the other was a rooming house?
Mrs.Rich. Well, I call it a rooming house. Perhaps I have named it incorrectly. I would say a private home cut up into small apartments.
Mr.Hubert. But you don’t remember where that was?
Mrs.Rich. I cannot remember. I can remember the house. I would probably know it if I see it. It is outside the city a little ways. It wasn’t right in the heart of downtown.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the name of the lady who owned the house?
Mrs.Rich. No; I don’t.
Mr.Hubert. Now, the other was an apartment building, you say.
Mrs.Rich. Yes. I believe—now, put this as supposed—I believe it was 1136 Oak Street, but I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. So that both places were on Oak Street?
Mrs.Rich. No, no. The one on Oak, I think, that was the address. I don’t recall what the first one was that Mr. Rayburn put me into.
Mr.Hubert. Let’s see if I get this straight. You lived in a boarding house which was a house cut into small units, you say, and you don’t know where that was located.
Mrs.Rich. No; that is correct.
Mr.Hubert. And how long did you stay there, do you suppose?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, maybe 3 or 4 weeks, 2 weeks, 3 weeks.
Mr.Hubert. After which, as I understand, you then went to the larger apartment house.
Mrs.Rich. Yes; on Oak Street, apartment row, where all these big luxury apartments are.
Mr.Hubert. And that was on Oak Street?
Mrs.Rich. Oak Street.
Mr.Hubert. And you stayed there until Mr. Perrin joined you?
Mrs.Rich. Yes. And for a while after. Until we found a place comparable but at less money.
Mr.Hubert. And where was that?
Mrs.Rich. That I don’t remember. Junios Street. I remember it didn’t have a pool—it was a big brick apartment. Again, all of these places I can close my eyes and picture. But I cannot tell you. I can’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you live there with Mr. Perrin?
Mrs.Rich. At the last address that I don’t remember?
Mr.Hubert. Yes; ma’am.
Mrs.Rich. Probably 3 or 4 months. I think we left Dallas in October and went to New Orleans—either late October or early November.
Mr.Hubert. What year?
Mrs.Rich. Of 1962. Now, this is where I am getting confused. It had to have been 1961. This is where I get confused. When I stated before that it was May of 1962, it wasn’t. It was May of 1961.
Mr.Hubert. Why do you make that correction now?
Mrs.Rich. Well, it couldn’t have possibly been in 1962.
Mr.Hubert. Why?
Mrs.Rich. My husband died in August of 1962, in New Orleans. And we had been there over a year.
Mr.Hubert. You had been in New Orleans over a year by the time he died?
Mrs.Rich. Almost a year. Between New Orleans and Boston, and Miami. Yousee——
Mr.Hubert. When did you leave Dallas, then?
Mrs.Rich. It would be October of 1961.
Mr.Hubert. That you left Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And all of these previous dates, May and July, you now wish tocorrect——
Mrs.Rich. To 1961.
Mr.Hubert. And you lived with Mr. Perrin after leaving Dallas in October of 1962—of 1961?
Mrs.Rich. 1961.
Mr.Hubert. You lived in New Orleans most of the time?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And he died there?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct. You see, it was New Orleans and Boston.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, I had asked you when you had first met Jack Ruby, and I think you were beginning to tell us when we got into the question of your residences. So now will you tell us how you met Jack Ruby, and when?
Mrs.Rich. The when I could not tell you exactly. Some time during May or June, I believe. Mr. Ruby’s records could tell you, due to the fact that I believe he probably took social security out. But the how was that Mr. Rayburn took me up and got me the job up there. Detective Rayburn.
Mr.Hubert. Now, how long after you had arrived in Dallas did you meet Mr. Ruby?
Mrs.Rich. Again, the time element eludes me. It could be anywhere from 2 or 3 weeks to a month.
Mr.Hubert. It is your thought that it might be that long after you arrived in Dallas under the circumstances that you told us about?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t know. A week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks. The last few years time has become nothing for me.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, what was your occupation with Ruby, and where was it?
Mrs.Rich. I was bartender at the Carousel Lounge, on Commercial—well, the main street in Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. Commerce?
Mrs.Rich. Commerce.
Mr.Hubert. What were some of the names of the other people who worked with you at that time?
Mrs.Rich. Buddy King—I should say his professional name is Buddy King—Robert J. Stewart. I am trying to think of the name of that MC. I have been trying to think of it, and I cannot. Ray something or other, I believe. They came and they went.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you employed by Ruby altogether?
Mrs.Rich. Probably a couple of months.
Mr.Hubert. Did you work with Ruby after your husband joined you?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; I did.
Mr.Hubert. Did you work until you left Dallas?
Mrs.Rich. No; I did not.
Mr.Hubert. How long before leaving Dallas did you quit the job at Ruby’s?
Mrs.Rich. Possibly a couple of months, 3 months. I wasn’t in Dallas more than maybe 5 months, 4 months at the most, 4 or 5 months at the most.
Mr.Hubert. Now, when you say bartender, what do you mean? What were your actual duties?
Mrs.Rich. I was actually a bartender. I worked behind the bar mixing and serving drinks.
Mr.Hubert. What sort of drinks?
Mrs.Rich. Whatever was allowed. Actually, you are not allowed to serve mixed drinks there. We do to special customers. You are not allowed to serve hard liquor. But I served beer, and wine, of course, and your setups.
Mr.Hubert. What customers did you serve hard liquor to?
Mrs.Rich. Whomever I was told to.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t know their names?
Mrs.Rich. I couldn’t quote you names, perhaps.
Mr.Hubert. Who told you to serve them?
Mrs.Rich. Mr. Ruby. It was a standing order. For a particular group of people. Then whenever he would come in and say, “This is private stock stuff,” that would mean for me to go where I knew the hard liquor was and get it out, and get it ready for the people in his private office.
Mr.Hubert. What was the particular group—who did it consist of?
Mrs.Rich. The police department.
Mr.Hubert. Are you saying that Jack Ruby told you that when any member of the police department came in, that there was a standing order that you could serve them hard liquor?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. And are you also saying that you did so?
Mrs.Rich. I am saying that I needed a job and did so.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the names of any particular officers to whom you served hard liquor?
Mrs.Rich. House,Rayburn——
Mr.Hubert. Let’s see if we can get some first names.
Mrs.Rich. I don’t remember what House’s first name was, but it was Paul Rayburn, and Detective—something House—they were partners. They worked as a team, juvenile. And the rest were just faces and uniforms.
Mr.Hubert. How would you know them?
Mrs.Rich. At that time, I knew them.
Mr.Hubert. You knew them to be police?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did they pay?
Mrs.Rich. Oh, no; of course not.
Mr.Hubert. Was that an order, too, from Mr. Ruby?
Mrs.Rich. That was. Unless they came in in the evening with their wives. Then, of course, they paid. But then again, they didn’t have hard liquor, either, at that time. This is when they came in, by themselves, I was to go get the private stock, as he called it, special stock. They were served whatever they wanted on the house.
Mr.Hubert. Was that widespread?
Mrs.Rich. I am not sure I understand what you mean by widespread.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you have mentioned two names, and then said there were others whose names you don’t remember.
Mrs.Rich. Well, the only reason I remember House and Rayburn is because they were personal friends of mine.
Mr.Hubert. Well, how many others do you suppose you served?
Mrs.Rich. I couldn’t estimate. I couldn’t give you a true and accurate figure. Anyone that came in from the police department. Including certain attorneys intown. One attorney I particularly remember was a fellow named Sy Victorson, who subsequently became my attorney, and a personal friend.
Mr.Hubert. And what?
Mrs.Rich. And a personal friend.
Mr.Hubert. What was your salary there?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t remember. $50, $60 a week, I guess.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any tips?
Mrs.Rich. Sometimes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember a man by the name of Andy Armstrong or Andrew Armstrong?
Mrs.Rich. The name Armstrong doesn’t ring a bell. I guess, if my memory serves me correctly—wasn’t the colored man that cleaned up around there, Andy?
Mr.Hubert. Is that the way you remember him?
Mrs.Rich. I wouldn’t swear to it. I do know we had a colored man cleaning up, but I would be darned if I remember his name.
Mr.Hubert. You think it may have been Andy?
Mrs.Rich. I can’t remember. I wouldn’t even dare venture a guess. In all honesty, I would have to say I can’t really put a face to the name.
Mr.Hubert. But there was a colored man there?
Mrs.Rich. Yes; there was a colored man that cleaned up.
Mr.Hubert. Did he stay on in the afternoon and at night?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. What were your hours?
Mrs.Rich. I believe I would come in around 3, 4, 5 o’clock, I think, sometimes I would come in at 6, or 7; I would work straight through to midnight.
Mr.Hubert. Was this cleanup man present when you came in?
Mrs.Rich. If I came in the afternoon, yes, the colored man was there. As I say, in all honesty, I could not dare venture a name on that.
Mr.Hubert. But you don’t remember any colored man who was there helping at the bar in the night hours?
Mrs.Rich. You don’t notice them. I mean they are there. If you have been a bartender, you would know what I mean. You don’t notice people like that. They are taken for granted they are there, you have a bar helper. Heck, I don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. Well, what you are saying is that you do not remember that there was any colored man who assisted with the bar at night.
Mrs.Rich. I will be darned if I can even put a face to whoever did bring the bottles and stuff out to me, the cases.
Mr.Hubert. Your answer to my question, then, is that you do not remember that there was a colored man other than the cleaner that you mentioned.
Mrs.Rich. Well, he did everything. I do remember he lugged beer cases out for me. I think if my memory is right—I think he stacked my cooler for me.
Mr.Hubert. Would he leave before you?
Mrs.Rich. I don’t really remember. As I say, these people you take for granted, you don’t pay any attention to them. I never gave it a second thought. I had one thing on my mind, and it went against my grain. I was doing something I knew to be illegal, and I knew I needed the job. Every night I expected a raid. That was my prime concern.
Mr.Hubert. Would you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mrs.Rich. Ralph Lee?
Mr.Hubert. No; Ralph Paul.
Mrs.Rich. If he is the one I am thinking of, he was the manager at Earl’s Club.
Mr.Hubert. Earl who?
Mrs.Rich. Earl’s Club. I don’t know what Earl’s last name was. I forgot. It is a private club in Dallas. But I knew him as Ralph Lee. Oh, I don’t think it is the same one. Again, I would remember people if I saw their faces. Names I don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know a person by the name of Eva Grant?
Mrs.Rich. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who was she?
Mrs.Rich. Well, she managed Jack’s other club; his sister managed the Vegas Club.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever meet her?
Mrs.Rich. One time.
Mr.Hubert. Where?
Mrs.Rich. She came in at the club there one time, was introduced as his sister, and that she managed the Vegas Club, which I had never been out to.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any difficulty with Ruby?
Mrs.Rich. Except the fact I was about ready to throw a cash register on his head, no.
Mr.Hubert. What was that?
Mrs.Rich. I shouldn’t have said that. I said except for the fact that I was ready one night to throw a cash register on his head, no. I don’t like to be pushed around.
Mr.Hubert. Are you suggesting that he did push you around?
Mrs.Rich. I am suggesting he threw me up against the bar and put a bruise on my arm, and only because Bud King and one of the dancers there pulled me off, I was going to kill him.
Mr.Hubert. What was the argument about?
Mrs.Rich. The bar glasses were not clean enough to suit him. And I wasn’t pushing drinks to the customers fast enough.
Mr.Hubert. And so he remonstrated with you?
Mrs.Rich. He did.
Mr.Hubert. And that included pushing you around?
Mrs.Rich. That is correct. And I was refused the privilege of bringing an assault and battery suit against him.
Mr.Hubert. Who refused you that?
Mrs.Rich. The police department. I went down for information and was going to Mr. Douglas—I believe he was—he is some attorney—I think he was—he is with the DA’s office. I don’t remember his position. I can’t remember his last name. I wanted to file suit against Ruby. And I was refused. I was told if I did that I would never win it, and get myself in more trouble than I bargained for.
Mr.Hubert. That was told to you by whom?
Mrs.Rich. By the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Hubert. But what individual of the Dallas Police Department?
Mrs.Rich. Again—and I wish to God I could—I can’t remember his name. There was a detective, plainclothesman.
Mr.Hubert. Did you say that you had spoken to someone in the district attorney’s office?
Mrs.Rich. No; I said that is who I was going to go to. I wasn’t advised. I was flatly told not to.
Mr.Hubert. And you did not go to anyone in the district attorney’s office?
Mrs.Rich. No; I did not.
Mr.Hubert. Did that put an end to your employment with Ruby?
Mrs.Rich. No; I had already ceased with Ruby the night that that happened. I walked out, and left him cold.
Mr.Hubert. That is what I mean.
Mrs.Rich. That is correct.
Mr.Hubert. After this altercation, you no longer worked for him?
Mrs.Rich. I did not. I was just biding my time until I found another job, which I did find. This was on a Wednesday. I was going to give him notice and leave him—I wasn’t going to leave him over the weekend, but I was going to start the other place the following Monday anyway. And this just hastened it.
Mr.Hubert. Did you report that to your husband?
Mrs.Rich. I did.
Mr.Hubert. He was employed in Dallas at that time, I think you said.
Mrs.Rich. Yes; he was.
Mr.Hubert. Where?
Mrs.Rich. At this time, I don’t recall whether he was working for PaulRayburn, Detective Rayburn, at his used car lot, or whether he was with Al’s Automotive. One of the two places.
Mr.Hubert. What sort of a job did he have?
Mrs.Rich. Mechanic. Subsequently my husband went up and Jack Ruby threw him out of the club. My husband was going to talk to him. And I found out about it. Ruby had already kicked him out of the club. And then I disuaded him from going back further. I said, “Forget it, just let it drop.”
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any other employment in Dallas after this altercation with Ruby?