TESTIMONY OF RALPH PAUL
The testimony of Ralph Paul was taken at 8:03 p.m., on April 15, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr.Hubert. This is the deposition of Mr. Ralph Paul.
Mr. Paul, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of President Johnson’s Commission to investigate the death of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, issued by the President’s Commission, the Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by Congress in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you, Mr. Paul. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts related to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Paul, the nature of the inquiry tonight is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about Jack Ruby and his associates, and his business and social friends and so forth. Now, I believe you have appeared here as a result of a letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel of the Commission, advising that we would be here and requesting that you appear. Was that letter received by you more than 3 days ago?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Will you stand up and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Paul. Yes; I do.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Paul, will you state your name for the record, please?
Mr.Paul. Ralph Paul.
Mr.Hubert. And how old are you, Mr. Paul?
Mr.Paul. I will be 65 this December.
Mr.Hubert. Where do you reside?
Mr.Paul. Right now I live with some friends—I’m building a house in Arlington, 1602 Browning Drive.
Mr.Hubert. The letter of request to appear was addressed to the correct place?
Mr.Paul. Yes; both places.
Mr.Hubert. I understand that you are the owner or manager, and that is one of the things we want to clarify, of the Bull Pen?
Mr.Paul. I am the owner.
Mr.Hubert. You are the owner?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Is that a corporation?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What is the name of the corporation?
Mr.Paul. That is Bappo [spelling] B-a-p-p-o.
Mr.Hubert. That is Bappo, Inc., isn’t it?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. And that is a closely held corporation, I take it?
Mr.Paul.Well——
Mr.Hubert. I mean, do you own all the stock?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. And, of course, the corporation owns the business and you manage the business?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you have any other occupation at the present time?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you lived in Dallas?
Mr.Paul. In Dallas—itself?
Mr.Hubert. Well, let’s put it in the Dallas area, first. I mean—Dallas-Fort Worth area.
Mr.Paul. Okay—I came in December 1947.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you live prior to that time?
Mr.Paul. New York, New York City.
Mr.Hubert. In New York City?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And I think that you originally are an immigrant, is that correct?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. That information, I believe is information in the statement you have given.
Mr.Paul. That’s correct.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall what it was that caused you to come to Texas from New York?
Mr.Paul. I was connected with some show people and they came down here and told me how great Texas was, and I came down, and in fact I came down and leased the club, leased the Sky Club at first, and we stayed there a month and then we bought it.
Mr.Hubert. Leased which one?
Mr.Paul. The Sky Club.
Mr.Hubert. That was in 1947?
Mr.Paul. That’s actually in 1948, I mean, I came to Dallas 2 days before New Years or something like that.
Mr.Hubert. Two days before New Years in 1947, so it’s practically 1948?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any connections here when you came?
Mr.Paul. No—I didn’t know anybody here.
Mr.Hubert. When you say “we”, you mean you and your wife?
Mr.Paul. No—that entertainer and her husband brought me down here.
Mr.Hubert. What were their names?
Mr.Paul. Joe Bonds and Dale Belmont—it’s also in there.
Mr.Hubert. They were husband and wife?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And they had been here before?
Mr.Paul. They had been here before.
Mr.Hubert. And they interested you in coming into this area?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you leave all your business and social connections in New York?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Were you married?
Mr.Paul. No; not at that time I came down from New York.
Mr.Hubert. You have been married since?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. You are not married at all?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. You never have been married?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And is your wife dead or are you divorced from her?
Mr.Paul. We got divorced in 1931.
Mr.Hubert. And you have never remarried?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Were you supposed to supply capital to the venture?
Mr.Paul. What venture?
Mr.Hubert. With Joe Bonds?
Mr.Paul. Oh, yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you say it was in a very short period after arriving here you got interested in a place called the Sky Club?
Mr.Paul. No; they interested me to come down here—they interested me to come down here and rent the Sky Club from a man called Satterwhite, and after we stayed there a month, he decided to sell it to us and then is when we bought it.
Mr.Hubert. Who put up the capital?
Mr.Paul. We put up some capital—the rest of it was by notes.
Mr.Hubert. Was the corporation formed then?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. So, it was owned by you and Bonds?
Mr.Paul. Ralph Paul and Joe Bonds.
Mr.Hubert. Half and half?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How long did that venture last?
Mr.Paul. I sold out my interest in May of 1948.
Mr.Hubert. So, it lasted a very short period of time?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Whom did you sell it to?
Mr.Paul. I sold it to a man from Miami that came up here looking for business—I can’t think of his name—Rosenheim.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember his first name?
Mr.Paul. I think it’s some place in this—that is, his first name is.
Mr.Hubert. That’s all right, we will get to that. What sort of place was the Sky Club—what was it?
Mr.Paul. A nightclub.
Mr.Hubert. Where was it located?
Mr.Paul. On the Fort Worth Cutoff. I think the address was six something Fort Worth Avenue.
Mr.Hubert. What venture did you go into after that?
Mr.Paul. I opened up a bar in downtown Dallas called the Blue Bonnet, underneath the Blue Bonnet Hotel.
Mr.Hubert. Did you rent the premises there and operate the bar yourself?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any partners in that?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you maintain that occupation?
Mr.Paul. I maintained it close to 5 years. I opened it in November and sold it 5 years later in September.
Mr.Hubert. So, you would have opened it in November 1948?
Mr.Paul. Correct.
Mr.Hubert. And you would have sold it?
Mr.Paul. In September 1963.
Mr.Hubert. 1953?
Mr.Paul. No; 1953—that’s correct.
Mr.Hubert. And what did you do after 1953?
Mr.Paul. Well, I didn’t do nothing for several months and then I and Chris Semos opened up the Miramar Restaurant on Fort Worth Avenue.
Mr.Hubert. And that was a partnership too?
Mr.Paul. Yes; that was a partnership.
Mr.Hubert. It was not a corporation?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Now, this Chris Semos, did he put up the money?
Mr.Paul. We both put up some money and the rest was notes.
Mr.Hubert. And what was the name of that?
Mr.Paul. Miramar Restaurant.
Mr.Hubert. That was a restaurant?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And nightclub, was it?
Mr.Paul. No, just a restaurant and drive-in.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you operate that?
Mr.Paul. Close to 3 years—about 3 years less 2 months.
Mr.Hubert. So that you operated that until, say, Julyof——
Mr.Paul. No; I operated that until February.
Mr.Hubert. Of what year?
Mr.Paul. Of 1957.
Mr.Hubert. Did you sell that, then?
Mr.Paul. I sold it to Chris Semos.
Mr.Hubert. You sold the whole thing to him?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you take a note from him?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I notice that in your income tax returns for some later years you show interest received from Chris Semos of about $250 a month; is that interest on that note?
Mr.Paul. No; it’s $125 a month for seven years, that includes $100 a month payments and $25 interest.
Mr.Hubert. I beg your pardon—that’s what I meant to say.
Mr.Paul. That’s $250 a year—and one time it was $250 because he wouldn’t pay 2 months.
Mr.Hubert. The interest you show as received, I said $250 a month, I meant to say it was $250 a year.
Mr.Paul. That’s right, $250 altogether, and one year he didn’t pay full so it was only $250.
Mr.Hubert. Is that loan paid out now?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. So, in February of 1957 you didn’t have any business connections?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Sir?
Mr.Paul. No, sir. I went into partners with Jack Ruby’s brother, Sam, and in a little ice cream place. We opened up April 25, 1957, and closed it—we didn’t close, we gave the lease away so they wouldn’t hold us responsible for the lease, and we lost some money because the fixtures that we bought was more.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you operate that?
Mr.Paul. May, June, and July.
Mr.Hubert. Just a few months?
Mr.Paul. We saw it didn’t make, so there was no use in wasting time.
Mr.Hubert. What was your next business venture then?
Mr.Paul. Next, I didn’t go in business, I was helping Jack Ruby in the Vegas Club from August until the following year—May.
Mr.Hubert. August of what year?
Mr.Paul. August 1957, to May 1958.
Mr.Hubert. You were with Ruby, you say, at the Vegas Club?
Mr.Paul. Yes; I just was helping him.
Mr.Hubert. You mean on a salary?
Mr.Paul. Well, no—it wasn’t really a salary. I helped him out on Friday and Saturday.
Mr.Hubert. Did you receive any compensation at all?
Mr.Paul. Well, the only compensation I received he owed me some money, he paid me back.
Mr.Hubert. Well, perhaps at that point then we should go back to—so that you may tell us when you first met Jack Ruby.
Mr.Paul. Like I said over here, it was one of these improvised meetings that you meet somebody that comes over to you and introduces himself.
Mr.Hubert. When was it, about; do you know?
Mr.Paul. 1958.
Mr.Hubert. In 1958?
Mr.Paul. I mean, in 1948.
Mr.Hubert. In 1948?
Mr.Paul. Those years fly back so fast, 1948. That’s the year I was up to the Sky Club yet.
Mr.Hubert. And he simply came over and introduced himself to you?
Mr.Paul. Yes; he says, “I’m Jack Ruby. I own the Silver Spur.” I don’t think it was known as the Silver Spur, but I can’t recall the name it was known then. It keeps on running in my mind that it wasn’t the Silver Spur—it was another name, but I can’t remember it.
Mr.Hubert. Was it the Singapore?
Mr.Paul. That’s it.
Mr.Hubert. It was the Singapore?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And he told you he was the owner of the Singapore?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And subsequently that became the Silver Spur.
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any business connections with Ruby at all until he got to owe you some money?
Mr.Paul. Well, I’ll tell you the whole thing—the whole story.
Mr.Hubert. Yes; that’s best—that’s the best way to do it.
Mr.Paul. Well, one day he came in with a friend of his—he’s now deceased.
Mr.Hubert. If you could fix the time and place—as you go—it would be helpful, and I know it’s a long time ago but perhaps we will have to take an approximation.
Mr.Paul. Maybe it was 1949 or 1950 or 1951, I can’t remember those years, and he asked me for a loan.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember what the friend’s name was? The one that he came in with?
Mr.Paul. He’s now deceased, but it was Marty Gimpel.
Mr.Hubert. And the two of them came to you?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And wanted to borrow some money?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How much was it they wanted to borrow?
Mr.Paul. $2,000.
Mr.Hubert. Did you lend it to them?
Mr.Paul. He said to me, “I’ve got a show, I want to buy the Bob Wills Ranch House”—did you get this one in there any place—he said, “I’ve got to show it,” and he says, “All I want to do is show them that I’ve got the money and I’ll give it back to you the following day.” Well, not that I knew the guy so much, but you know, you can’t turn people down like that if he wants to pay me the next day, so I loaned him $2,000.
Mr.Hubert. Did you get a note?
Mr.Paul. No; he was going to pay me back the next day. Well, the next day didn’t come. Subsequently he roped me in for $3,700.
Mr.Hubert. You mean—more?
Mr.Paul. With the $2,000—$3,700 altogether.
Mr.Hubert. Making $1,700 more?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, why don’t you just tell us in your own words just how this relationship developed and so forth?
Mr.Paul. It’s silly but true, and when I tell it, it’s really funny. The next time he comes he says, “They didn’t think it enough money to show for the place, I’ve got to show them $3,000,” so I gave him another $1,000.
Mr.Hubert. That would have been just a few days after?
Mr.Paul. Yes—that’s 2 days afterwards. Instead of the next day coming—he came 2 days and he says, “This is it positively—I’ve just got to show themthe money.” Well, he didn’t come around that Saturday, and subsequently he came around and he said he had to use the money to get into the business there. What do you do with a person—you’re just stuck. You can’t do nothing until then—you can’t do nothing with them. That went on for a couple of months, and now, listen to this: One day, on a Friday—that’s how the other $700 is going to come in—on a Friday he comes in and he says, “If I don’t get the money to buy beer, I’ve got to close it down.” Well, you’ve got to think—you’re already stuck with $3,000—that’s how the payments came when I was with him at the Vegas Club—you understand me?
Mr.Hubert. Yes; so, you gave him another $700 on that occasion?
Mr.Paul. Yes; but when he sold the Silver Spur at that time, he gave me money back, because I have the note on the Silver Spur. He gave me the note on the Silver Spur for the money, so in order to release the note, he gave me $1,000.
Mr.Hubert. Now, that’s a different transaction from the $3,700; is it?
Mr.Paul. That’s from the $3,700. You see, I took a note afterwards, when he went bankrupt—when he went with the Bob Wills Ranch House, he gave me a note on the Silver Spur.
Mr.Hubert. For what amount?
Mr.Paul. For the $3,700.
Mr.Hubert. Up to that time you didn’t have a note, but when the Ranch Housefolded——
Mr.Paul. Folded—it didn’t fold, his partner bought him out—the two of them—he couldn’t—he didn’t get any money out of it anyway.
Mr.Hubert. Then, he went into the Silver Spur?
Mr.Paul. No; he was in the Silver Spur before.
Mr.Hubert. He was in the Silver Spur already?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. He was in both?
Mr.Paul. Yes; he was in both.
Mr.Hubert. So, you got him to give you a note to show the $3,700?
Mr.Paul. But when he sold it, I think he sold it for $2,200, or $2,700, but he had to pay so many people that he gave me a thousand.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, when he sold the SilverSpur——
Mr.Paul. I had to give him the note—he couldn’t sell it without the note.
Mr.Hubert. Was the note secured in any way?
Mr.Paul. No; it was registered.
Mr.Hubert. A registered note, which made it a lien against the Silver Spur?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. So that if he was going to sell it to anybody he had to clear the note, he had to get some sort of cancellation as to registration and that required the note?
Mr.Paul. I gave him the note.
Mr.Hubert. And you gave him the note for $1,000.
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. That left $2,700 still owing?
Mr.Paul. Not exactly $2,700—he paid me in little sums like 50 or 100—I think it left about $2,200.
Mr.Hubert. At that time?
Mr.Paul. At that time.
Mr.Hubert. And, of course, you had no more note?
Mr.Paul. Yes; but when I helped him at the club, he gave me $50 or $25 or anything he could get ahold of to give me, so that eventually the note went down to $1,200, and that’s what it remained on that deal.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, from August 1957 to May 1958, you helped out at the Vegas, which he was then operating?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. The Silver Spur had gone?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And then the indebtedness got reduced to about $1,200 you think as of May 1958?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Is there any further story to that note, or is that money still owing?
Mr.Paul. That money is still owing.
Mr.Hubert. That has never been paid?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. And you have no note for it?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Now, after May 1958, what did you do?
Mr.Paul. I bought into the Bull Pen.
Mr.Hubert. And that was with Semos?
Mr.Paul. No, no; that was with Bowman.
Mr.Hubert. With Bowman?
Mr.Paul. Bowman had a partner, and he got a notice from the building department—what is it, VA or something like that—they wanted him—as an examiner, so he sold out to me.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, originally you and Bowman were in as a partnership alone, or was it a corporation when it started?
Mr.Paul. No, no; when I bought this man out it was a stepfather then—when I bought him out—Bowman and I were partners—50-50 partners. Then we made it a corporation.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the year of the incorporation?
Mr.Paul. I think it was 1960.
Mr.Hubert. 1960, but you had operated prior to that as a 50-50 partnership with Bowman?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Then, you became a corporation and when did you buy out Bowman completely so that you are now full owner?
Mr.Paul. January 1, 1963.
Mr.Hubert. Now, after you left this association with Ruby in May of 1958, did you have any further business or social relationship with him?
Mr.Paul. Yes; we were friends.
Mr.Hubert. You had been friends actually for that time almost 10 years, hadn’t you?
Mr.Paul. Yes; we were friends from the time he loaned the money from me, let’s put it that way. We had to be friends.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him quite often?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How did that come about?
Mr.Paul. Well, the nights I had off, you see, we used to work 1 day and 1 night with my partners. If I worked nights, the next day he worked nights, so we swung it around, so the nights I had off, either I would go to the Vegas Club—at that time he had the Vegas Club alone, and after that we would go out to eat.
Mr.Hubert. Was his sister, Eva Grant, with the Vegas at that time? At the very beginning?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. When did she come in, do you know?
Mr.Paul. When he opened up—not the Carousel, but the first one—which one was that?
Mr.Hubert. The Sovereign Club?
Mr.Paul. The Sovereign Club.
Mr.Hubert. What year was that—about?
Mr.Paul. 1959 or 1960—I think it was 1959.
Mr.Hubert. Had you known her before?
Mr.Paul. Just a casual acquaintance, you know, I mean—I must have seen her once or twice.
Mr.Hubert. She didn’t live in Dallas?
Mr.Paul. No; I think she was out on the road some place selling merchandise.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any further business relations with Sam Ruby?
Mr.Paul. No; just that ice cream place.
Mr.Hubert. That’s all you ever had with him?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Then, did you ever have any financial interest in the Vegas?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t now and never have had any?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you have any, or have you ever had any financial interest in the Sovereign Club?
Mr.Paul. Actually—no—not interest at that time, but when I loaned him money on the Sovereign Club, that was after he went out with his partner. He and his partner couldn’t get along—Slayton.
Mr.Hubert. That was Joe Slayton?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. They had started the Sovereign Club and they couldn’t get along and Jack needed some money?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You loaned him some money, then, did you?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. How much?
Mr.Paul. Well, I think I loaned him for 3 months’ rent or 4 months’ rent—$550 a month, because that was the time he couldn’t pay the rent.
Mr.Hubert. You loaned that in cash?
Mr.Paul. No; I give him a check—not in cash.
Mr.Hubert. You gave him a check?
Mr.Paul. A check—I gave him a check.
Mr.Hubert. Did he give you any evidence of indebtedness?
Mr.Paul. No; the following year he gave me 50 percent of the club, telling me that if the thing don’t go, the fixtures and everything should represent my money.
Mr.Hubert. You had no note about it?
Mr.Paul. No; he gave it to me—I knew about it.
Mr.Hubert. No; but did he give you a note?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Was there any kind of written agreement?
Mr.Paul. It was a stock receipt.
Mr.Hubert. That was a corporation?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And he gave you a stock certificate?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember how many shares it was for?
Mr.Paul. Five hundred.
Mr.Hubert. Was that half of the corporation?
Mr.Paul. Half of the place.
Mr.Hubert. And he endorsed that over to you?
Mr.Paul. Yes, yes; I think he did—he and Slayton—I think did.
Mr.Hubert. And what was the consideration, that is to say, what money did you pay for that?
Mr.Paul. To open up theCarousel——
Mr.Hubert. No; I’m talking about the Sovereign.
Mr.Paul. The Sovereign was no consideration—just the stock deal, that if anything happens to the club I should get some money out of it for the fixtures.
Mr.Hubert. Well, as a matter of fact you had actually loaned him 4 months’ rent at $550, whatever that is?
Mr.Paul. About $2,200.
Mr.Hubert. Yes; $2,200, so, was it considered that that loan or that indebtedness was the consideration for the stock?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. Or, was the stock merely to secure it?
Mr.Paul. That’s the security of that money—the stock was the security of the money.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, if he had paid the money back to you, he was entitled to the stock?
Mr.Paul. That’s right. In fact, he took the stock certificate one time; he thought he would be able to sell the club.
Mr.Hubert. I see.
Mr.Paul. He thought he would be able to sell the club, so I give him the stock certificates; you know—you deal with people in money, that’s true, and you are very careful, but sometimes friendship overshadows a lot of things.
Mr.Hubert. I gather from what you say there that therefore there was a close friendship between you and Jack. Did you continue during that time on a friendly basis; that is to say, visiting at the Vegas or Sovereign Club?
Mr.Paul. Yes; we were always friends.
Mr.Hubert. You think you saw him two or three times a week during that time?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. That would be from 1958 on?
Mr.Paul. No; prior to that I saw him a lot of times before.
Mr.Hubert. Jack was never married, was he?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Where was the Sovereign located? Was it the same place as the Carousel?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know anything about the changeover from the Sovereign to the Carousel?
Mr.Paul. Oh, yes; I forced him to change that over.
Mr.Hubert. All right; tell us about that, if you can tell us the dates and times, as close as you can.
Mr.Paul. And, he needed money; the Sovereign Club was dead, as far as he was concerned. Either he closed it or—either he closes it or he does something else with it. So, I told him to change it to a burlesque house and I will give him $1,650 to pay more rent on the place so he could go on, so I loaned him $1,650 more to turn it over to a burlesque. That’s when he changed it from the Sovereign Club, a private club, to a burlesque house, which was an open place.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, with the Sovereign Club you had to belong to the club?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. Sort of a bottle club, as required by the laws of Texas?
Mr.Paul. That’s right; he had a bottle club.
Mr.Hubert. If you belonged to the club, you could buy liquor in the club, and if you didn’t you couldn’t, and it was your thought that the thing could be a success if its nature were changed?
Mr.Paul. Yes; well, it’s an open place.
Mr.Hubert. It’s an open place, a burlesque house, but, of course, you couldn’t sell hard liquor?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. But it would sell beer?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. But your proposition to him was that you would advance $1,650 in the new venture to at least pay the rent for some time?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know anything about the incorporation of the S. & R., Inc.?
Mr.Paul. Yes; the S. & R. started the thing. That was the first deal; S. & R. is Slayton and Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. When you say “the first deal,” are you speaking of the corporation that existed with reference to the Sovereign Club?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Are you aware that there was a corporation called Sovereign, Inc., that owned the Sovereign Club?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I think you told me that he endorsed over as security 500 of the shares?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. That was not the S. & R. shares with the stock certificates, was it?
Mr.Paul. The S. & R. was the Sovereign Club. The original Sovereign Clubwas the S. & R., because Slayton didn’t belong to anything else but the Sovereign Club.
Mr.Hubert. Let me see if I can get this straight; you mentioned that in order to start the Sovereign Club you advanced $1,650?
Mr.Paul. No; that’s after Slayton went out.
Mr.Hubert. After Slayton went out?
Mr.Paul. Jack Ruby owned the whole thing then.
Mr.Hubert. He did?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you loaned him 3 or 4 months’ rent?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. In return for which he pledged to you or gave you as security 500 shares of the stock of the corporation?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But I want to know what corporation was that; was that the Sovereign?
Mr.Paul. S. & R.
Mr.Hubert. And what year would that have been in?
Mr.Paul. In 1959 or 1960.
Mr.Hubert. Well, apparently you were not aware that there was a Sovereign, Inc.; a corporation called Sovereign, Inc.?
Mr.Paul. No; all I knew was that it was the S. & R.
Mr.Hubert. Then, when the place was changed to the Carousel, what happened to your 500 shares?
Mr.Paul. It’s still the same thing; Carousel is only a name. It’s still S. & R.
Mr.Hubert. Do you still have those shares?
Mr.Paul. No; I gave them over to his sister.
Mr.Hubert. When was that?
Mr.Paul. February 14.
Mr.Hubert. Of this year?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But you had held those shares, half of the ownership, as it were, of the Sovereign Club originally, and subsequently the Carousel, until recently?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, did you get any income from the corporation?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you get any kind of pay?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Of any sort; Jack never paid you any money through the years at all?
Mr.Paul. He never paid me a dime.
Mr.Hubert. And I gather from that that he stands owing you now $1,200, which was left from the original debt, about $2,200 that you loaned him for which you got a security—500 shares of a corporation—and then another $1,650 that you loaned him in order to open up the Carousel?
Mr.Paul. Right.
Mr.Hubert. A total of about $5,050, and is it your thought that he still owes you that much money?
Mr.Paul. Well, what am I going to do?
Mr.Hubert. I just wanted to find out just what the picture was, as to that. He never paid you any dividends?
Mr.Paul. He never had any money to pay me dividends; he always used to work from his pocket.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go to the Carousel very much?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir; once or twice a week.
Mr.Hubert. Did you usually go on Saturday nights?
Mr.Paul. Not every Saturday night; mostly Friday nights.
Mr.Hubert. There is some evidence that on those occasions that you went, there were some sort of payments made to you, Mr. Paul, and that’s what I want to find out, if there were any. I don’t know what the nature of them was; that’s why I’m asking you about it. If there were payments on a loan or payments because of your ownership of the Carousel.
Mr.Paul. Not that I know of; not that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, your statement to me is that Jack Ruby never paid you any money at all?
Mr.Paul. Yes; that’s right.
Mr.Hubert. Either in the way of repaying the loan or in the way of dividends? Or in the way of profits?
Mr.Paul. In the first place, until the last year that he was there, he was losing money.
Mr.Hubert. At the Carousel?
Mr.Paul. At the Carousel.
Mr.Hubert. Did it make some money in the last year?
Mr.Paul. In the last year I think it made some money, but he was so much in the hole that he had to pay everybody else. When he was arrested—now, mind you, when he was arrested—you wouldn’t think that an electric company—you could owe them that much money, but there was $175 or $180 a month, and he owed them over $600.
Mr.Hubert. The electric company?
Mr.Paul. Yes; the electric company—Dallas Electric Lights, and the telephone company—$153. He kept on owing everybody money.
Mr.Hubert. Well, in any case, you didn’t get any payments of money from him?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. For your share of what any profits might have been or dividends or interest or repayment of loan or in any way at all; is that correct?
Mr.Paul. That’s correct.
Mr.Hubert. Now, you say that you gave the 500 shares that you held up until February 14 of this year to Eva Grant?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Would you tell us why you did that?
Mr.Paul. Well, for one reason, I couldn’t run the club; I tried to run it, but I couldn’t run it. I lost about $3,000 in the time I run it from the 25th of November until the 14th of February.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever find out who owned the other 500 shares?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Was it Jack?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know; I was never interested to know all the other facts, because I never figured to get any money out of the place anyway.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know Earl Ruby?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. That’s Jack’s brother?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Had you ever met him prior to November 24 or November 25?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where?
Mr.Paul. In Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. Did he come here often?
Mr.Paul. No, sir; I think I met him twice or three times.
Mr.Hubert. In your whole life, until the 25th?
Mr.Paul. Until the 25th, yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have any interest in the Carousel?
Mr.Paul. I couldn’t tell you.
Mr.Hubert. Does he claim any?
Mr.Paul. I still don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know his brother Hyman?
Mr.Paul. Yes; I met him one time.
Mr.Hubert. Just one time?
Mr.Paul. The Friday before the assassination.
Mr.Hubert. Before the murder?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You never met him before?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. What about his sister, Eileen?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t know her at all?
Mr.Paul. I never heard of her.
Mr.Hubert. And I think he has another sister called Mrs. Anna Volpert.
Mr.Paul. No; I don’t know her, either.
Mr.Hubert. You never met any of the other brothers and sisters?
Mr.Paul. Yes; Sam and his wife, and Eva and Earl, and that’s all.
Mr.Hubert. And then Hyman?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Sam, of course, you have seen more often than any of them?
Mr.Paul. Oh, yes; Sam—well, we were partners for about 3 or 4 months.
Mr.Hubert. Yes; but you had no other business relations after that.
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. Well, can you tell me why it was that this man owed you this kind of money and you had the stock at least for security for something; you gave it to Eva; what caused that to come about; did she ask you, or did you volunteer to do that?
Mr.Paul. No; I voluntarily gave it to her so she could sell the club.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, your thought was that it wasn’t anything to you?
Mr.Paul. I told her, “I don’t want nothing out of it; I don’t want nothing, I take my loss.” And I let her have it. If she could sell it—to take the money and use it for herself, because she’s a poor widow and she will verify everything I said—just the words.
Mr.Hubert. Did she tell you that she had the other 500 shares?
Mr.Paul. No; she just told me last week—she was over at my place, and she told me she didn’t know who had the other 500 shares.
Mr.Hubert. Has anyone asked Earl about it?
Mr.Paul. I didn’t ask Earl about it.
Mr.Hubert. What about Jack himself?
Mr.Paul. I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Have you seen Jack since he has been in jail?
Mr.Paul. I have seen him three times since he has been in there—one time I seen him—about 4 weeks ago—the time before I went to New York, the week before I went to New York I was down there, the 27th, I think it was, and I came back the 2d.
Mr.Hubert. That was of April?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you saw him once just before that?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. That was the first time you had seen him since he had been in jail?
Mr.Paul. No; I saw him twice when he first got into jail—twice I saw him then.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, there was the last time you saw him in jail and then you saw him two other times before that?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. When were those times—about?
Mr.Paul. I think about the second week and the fourth week—I think.
Mr.Hubert. Did you discuss with him his business?
Mr.Paul. No, sir—no, sir; I didn’t discuss it—I didn’t discuss nothing—how could you discuss a man’s business when he is held for murder?
Mr.Hubert. Of course, I didn’t mean that you would bring up the subject, but I was wondering if perhaps he had asked about it?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you have been unable to get from any source Jack or Earl or Eva or Sam or anybody else where the other 500 shares are?
Mr.Paul. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. And you gave your 500 you held to her—you received nothing in return for it?
Mr.Paul. No: what I told her to do was to pay the Government.
Mr.Hubert. And from all you know, she doesn’t even know where the other 500 shares are?
Mr.Paul. No; that’s what she told me.
Mr.Hubert. I noticed on your income tax return, too, that you had a capital loss that you have spread over some years of $7,000; I think, last year was about the last of it—I think you used about $1,000 a year; is that in connection with any of this, or is that another transaction?
Mr.Paul. No; that’s from the Miramar and the ice cream place—that was in 1957. The place wasn’t in existence in 1957.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know a man by the name of George Senator?
Mr.Paul. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us what you know about him, please, Mr. Paul?
Mr.Paul. Well, he used to be a salesman, a dry goods salesman of men’s apparel, let’s call it, shirts and so forth.
Mr.Hubert. Wholesale?
Mr.Paul. No; retail—maybe wholesale, I don’t know—he was working for some firm on the road. Well, it’s Jack that made a friend of him you know what I mean, coming up to the club. They got friendly and in the last year I think he went into a novelty business with somebody—am I right?
Mr.Hubert. That’s the year 1963?
Mr.Paul. I think so—some cars and little—different things, a lot of a little truck, and then finally about—oh, maybe in July orAugust——
Mr.Hubert. Of 1963?
Mr.Paul. Yes; they pushed him out, I think.
Mr.Hubert. You mean his company did?
Mr.Paul. It isn’t a company, they pushed him out because he wasn’t selling anything, or he was using up the money or something to that effect, and they pushed him out and he wasn’t doing nothing and he was living with another man and they had an apartment and the other man got married and he didn’t have no money, so Jack told him he could live with him until he could get another job, but that’s George Senator.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you known George?
Mr.Paul. About 2 years.
Mr.Hubert. And you think Ruby knew him about the same length of time?
Mr.Paul. I think so—maybe a little longer.
Mr.Hubert. Did he do any work around the Carousel?
Mr.Paul. Who?
Mr.Hubert. George Senator?
Mr.Paul. I think he used to help him out on Saturday night. I don’t know whether he paid him or not. Now, I would like to know who told you I get money out of the Carousel? I wish I did.
Mr.Hubert. Of course, I can’t answer that.
Mr.Paul. I know, but somebody must have told you I get money out of that. You know what I used to do—I used to count the money for him at the end of the night because he was such a flip, you know what I mean, he used to argue with everybody that would count the money for him, and hold it until he went downstairs, so I gave it to him.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about that—that’s interesting.
Mr.Paul. Well, if I be there on Saturday night or Friday night, at the end of the night, he would say to me, “Clear the register.” So, I would count the money. He says, “Let the boy from the bar give you the money and hold it until we come downstairs and I go to the car.” And that’s how I got the money.
Mr.Hubert. So, you would be seen counting the money?
Mr.Paul. Yes: that’s right—that’s why I wanted to know who told you.
Mr.Hubert. But that’s all it amounted to, just that you had counted the money for him?
Mr.Paul. That’s all—I would bring it downstairs—he never carried it with him actually—I don’t know why he carried so much money the last time. Actually, he used to throw it in the back of the car in the trunk and he said, “That’s the place that nobody looks.”
Mr.Hubert. You mean you have known him to go home with money in the sack and he never put it on his person at all?
Mr.Paul. No—in the back of the car.
Mr.Hubert. Even when he parked his car at night he wouldn’t take it upstairs?
Mr.Paul. What do you mean—no; he never took it up to the house—he left it in the car.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever have occasion to know how much money he had around like that?
Mr.Paul. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Well, of course, you know, I suppose, from the newspapers and what you have heard that when he was arrested he had altogether on his person and in the car an so forth, something inexcess——
Mr.Paul. It was in the car too, wasn’t it?
Mr.Hubert. Some of it, yes; but to your knowledge, most of the time he didn’t keep it on his person at all?
Mr.Paul. No.
Mr.Hubert. What about the gun, did he keep that on his person?
Mr.Paul. It’s a funny thing about the gun—he would always carry it in a bag, in a deposit bag, a money bag.
Mr.Hubert. A canvas bag,and——
Mr.Paul. Unless he went some place special, because he always said somebody might want to beat him up.
Mr.Hubert. What do you mean by “some place special”—like what?
Mr.Paul. Well, like if he was going out on a date or something, you know, I mean he wouldn’t carry the bag. I mean, if he went to a show or something, he wouldn’t carry the bag.
Mr.Hubert. But he took his gun?
Mr.Paul. No; he left it in the bag. The only time he would carry the gun—the bag was if he wasn’t going to no place or he went home—if he went to eat, he would take it with him.
Mr.Hubert. The gun or the bag?
Mr.Paul. The bag with the gun.
Mr.Hubert. From his car?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But yet he would leave it outside all night?
Mr.Paul. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. In the car?